לא לחנם הלך הזרזיר אצל העורב - יתד נאמן כותב על קבוצת "המלאכים" כאילו מ'האט אנדעקט אמעריקא

ר' הירשל א יישר כח פארן צושטעלען דעם לינק אויף איי וועלט, עס וואלט אפשר געווען פאסיג אויסצו שמועסן די עם הארצעס פונעם שרייבער בענין ליבאוויטש.
יישר כח

דא צו דארט?

נישט קיין נפקא מינה, דער עיקר בין איך אינטערסירט צו ליינען אייערע הערות

Thanks for linking this article, but...

I'm not sure why you have to make this about Rav Aharon.

Everyone knows that Rav Shlomo Heiman and the Rav Moshe Soloveitchik and others were giving shiurim here before Lakewood...so what? Who ever said or tried to pretend different?

It's not about Reb Aron, it's about these crazy claims in the frum press every week about who brought Yiddishkeit to America. Yated would probably say R Aron, so I'm bringing him up. But it's definitely not about him.

צו ברענגען אידישקייט האט זיך אויסגעפעלט מער ווי איין איד, און ווען יעדער וואלט געבליבען אליינס ווער ווייסט צו די ליכטאלע וואלט געבליבען ברענען.
נאר וויבאלט עס איז געווען א ליכטאלע און ווילאמסבורג, און קרוינהייטס, און לעקוואד, און סאמארוויל, און ווי נישט האט דאס אלעס צוזאמען משפיע געווען אויף די גאנצע מדינה.

איני אומר קבלי דעתי

ומה עם הצדיק הקדוש רבן של כל בני הגולה רבי שרגא פייויל מענדעלאוויטש זיעכי"א??

ואת העיקר שכחתם!
ראה התשובה הנפלאה אודות הכת שהתחכם נגדו
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=837&st=&pgnum=279&hilite=

אנטשולדיגט איר האט רעכט, איך האב נאר געברענגט משלים ואידך פירושא זיל גמור, עס איז ביי מיר א דבר ברור אז א יעדער פון די גדולים האבען באלאכטען דעם טינקעלען אמעריקע, ביז עס איז ארויס אזא שיינער אידישקייט, אפי' און די בחינה פון יתרון האור מתוך החושך,

און ווען נישט ר' שלמה פון באבוב וואס האט געראטעוועט פון די גאלינציאנער אידענטום, און דער קלויזענבורגער רב, עס איז נישט צום מזביר זיין וואס די אלע האבען געדארפט דורך ברעכען אז מיר זאלען האבען א ערליך ווינקל פאר אידישקייט.

יעדער מיט זיינע תכסיסי מלחמה, האט באלכטען אונזער וועלט, און געפארעמט דאס אמעריקע, עס זאל קולט זיין ערליכע אידען.

און אפי' די קליינע פינקען וואס זענען געווען און אמעריקא פון םפריער האבען אלע צוגעגיבען צום גרויסען בילד.
כן נראה לענ"ד.

איך ווייס נישט פארוואס דו ברענגסט נעמען פון רבנים און רבי'ס כאילו דער שאלה איז וועלכע רב אדער רעבע האט עס געטוהן. דער יסוד נעמט יארען, די פרוכט גייט שנעל. נאך יארען פון מסירת נפש אידען וואס זענען געשטאנען אקעגען דער שטראם און האבען זיך געפיהרט אידיש אפילו אונטער די שווערע אומשטענדען, האבען עס געמאכט לייכטער פאר אנדערע נאך איהם.
איך באמערק שוין לאנג, אז יעדער מענטש אין לעיקוואוד, כמעט אן אויסנאם, איז אן אייניקל פון איינער וואס האט אדער געלערנט אין ישיבות אין יוראפ און שוין געווען א בן עליה, אדער איז ער א מסירות נפש איד פון זיבעציג און אכציג יאר צוריק. לעומת זה, די א.ג. היימישע אידען פון וומסב"ג אדער ב"פ זענען עפ"י רוב קריג איבערלעבער, וואס ביים אנקומען אין אמעריקא זענען זיי אריין אין א קרייז, אזוי איז זיי געווען באקוועם, און דערנאך האבען זיי פראדוצירט קינדער מיט אייניקלאך וואס האבען נאך אין זייער לעבען נישט געזען קיין עובד ה', און אפאר דורות שפעטער האנדעלט זיך מיט א גאנצע דור פון מענטשען וואס האבען קיין מושג נישט וואס מ'וויל פון זיי.
אזוי איז דער מציאות, נישט קיין שיטה, אבער מיט דעם מוזען מיר זיך פארען.

יענקל לאזט הערן גאר שארפע דיבורים!

נאך איין שארפע דיבור פאר ר' הערשעל דער ציג.
אפילו ווען איינער קען יא נעמען קרעדיט פאר עפעס אין אמעריקא, איז וואס? פאר דעם קומט זיך איהם עפעס? ער לעבט דאך נישט. נאר פאר זיין אייניקעל קומט עפעס? אדער פאר זיין מוסדות? ס'איז בלויז א וואלקען פון שטותים וואס מ'לייגט אויף מענטשען כדי זיי זאלען נישט פרעגען קיין קשיות.
אפשר וועט מען זאגען אז פון דעם איז א ראיה אז דער שיטה איז גערעכט. דאס איז אויך נישט אין פלאץ. אז דער מציאות טוישט זיך וואס איז שייך צו ברענגען א ראיה פון איין יצה"ר צו א צווייטען? אז אין אונגארן איז געווען דער קאנצעליי דער ישועה פאר אידישקייט (לשיטותם) מיינט עס אז מ'זאל מאכען א קאנצעליי אין אמעירקא אויך? ט'וואלטען זיי געפאלגט דער ב"ד פון דער קאנצעליי? אדער דער וואס מיינט אז עפענען א ישיבה איז דער ישועה. פאר דעם דארף מען גארנישט אנדעריש טוהן היינט פאר פראבלעמען אין אונזער געעלשאפט ווייל דער ר"י זצ"ל האט געברענגט תורה אין אמעריקא און ער האט געמאכט א ישיבה, דעריבער דארפען מיר מאכען א ישיבה?!
שכל, נישט אלטמאדישע סלאגאנען.

Hirshel be open about whats bothering you,

Its these maloocheim who educated the world that the Ryaats was not Tocho Kbaro,
That his reading material had stuff that was a bad influence on him and his family
When they announced that an effigy of RMMS will be hanged on purim hundreds came
They influenced fogelkohn to fight RM Wechter

Yankel,

If ud like the true history of Rashab, Raayatz-Malavh story, read Rabbi Dalfin's Habad Portraits vol 1, available at Www.jewishinfo.org or yr local Jewish bookstore. He wrote a 40 page chapter abt citing interviews and other never before disclosed info.

Es Tzemach
"That his reading material had stuff that was a bad influence on him and his family" dont bring in family in here, you will egg on your face with the other family.
Its ironic that while he was sitting in borough of the Bronx USA safe and sound on a payroll from a kehilah, he allegedly(I think that the guys of Hewes street fabricated lots of lies) badmouthed a Jew that was mefarsem yidishkiet with mesiras nefesh mamesh.. its not evil, you are a simple ferd....
when is the last time you saw a maskil going willingly on the alter of mesiras nefesh????

ES Tzemach
"When they announced that an effigy of RMMS will be hanged on purim hundreds came"
Why are you pulling in the Malach in to this Drekk ?
it happened 40 years after his petirah, from a place which has long time no relationship to Chasidus and learning Dach....
BTW, 1 of the infamous eniklech of the most famous family was already by the Ohel to beg for Mechgila....

in maluchem there are sheerem in tanya an lekite torah every shabbos
uninterrupted for last 75 years

who gives the shiur? and do they use Chassidus Mevueres?

reb leml schwartz give the shiur and is makpid not to take into his hands a tanya that was printed by 770
but the participants have tanyas from 770 but entirely stripped the front and back

from whom did Lemuel Schwartz learn Tanya that he thinks he can give a shiur?

Anon
"reb leml schwartz give the shiur and is makpid not to take into his hands a tanya that was printed by 770"
the Shakran Mufleg Lemel Shwartz, never saw the Malach, what brings him to Nesivos Olam, besides hating the Tzadik Hadoir of 770?

Malach
"reb leml schwartz give the shiur and is makpid not to take into his hands a tanya that was printed by 770"
The Shakran Mufleg Lemel shwartz is a Satamr chosid, correct?
why is he teaching Tanya, his mentor of Sakmar, writes that the Alte rebbe only wrote his sefer for his chasidim, since he writes Beyodie Umiekiro...?
So its irrelevant, for our generation? let him teach hilchas melicha in yiddish, and hilchas Tzumas Hagidin (unless he is a Zali it's irrelevant too)
please ask Lemel the Shvartzer Malach and get back to us....

Oilam hatohu and others who talk like him,
The Judaism I practice is an important thing. Very important, in fact. That is why when tzadikim see something that seems to be against Judaism, they get very indignant. They will call it out in the sharpest of expressions and they do not try and cover it up or stick to a program of ahavas Yisroel. The Torah and its integrity is more important to them.
Now, you may claim that the 'Malach' was wrong, and you may be right about it. But there is nothing hateful about his belief. It is just a strong opinion about something important. No different to the Chasam Sofer in his Teshuvos about the issues of the day or the Chofetz Chaim in his letters. If he is wrong, you may say it and prove it. But hate has nothing to do with it.

Hirshel, is there a qualifying procedure to be able to teach Tanya? Who is baaleboss on the 'correct' way of teaching Tanya? Are we back to the point of 'who brought Torah to America' so that their einiklach can claim ownership of America?
The descendants of an Odom Gadol are not baalebatim on his Torah or opinions, especially not 200 years later.

Malach

"reb lemel schwartz give the shiur and is makpid not to take into his hands a tanya that was printed by 770"

The Shakran Mufleg Lemel shwartz is a Satamr chosid, correct?
Lemel the black angel writes in his book (3 Seers) that he gave for his Mentor of Sakmer, the source of the Kapuster saying that Chasidus is Nishtakcho after 150 years,
then again
Why is he teaching Tanya for the huge crowd of 3 Jews in Hewes street?
Chasidus is a bygone, according to the Kapuster and his Mentor of Sakmer
Let him please teach Al Hageula Ve'al Hatemura (on the print without the Kehot stamp) 24/7 since that's the only sefer that is relevant for our Doir.

Just ask all the OTD kids that are roaming the streets, they all went down because of the belief that the 6 day war in Palestine was a miracle.....

reb lemel scwartz has been attending this tanya shiur for the last 65 years
davens nusach ari hsa titzus tefilin lulev as the alter rebbe
he is a talmid of reb yacov shor who was a talmid of the malach who was the the melamed of the reyats

Yankel

Is there a qualification to teach Kabbalah? Talmud? why have a mesorah then? why did the CI say that he has a mesorah thru the Gaon to Moshe Rabbeinu if anybody can teach and say דעות

you may not NEED qualifications, but if you want to know what your talking about it helps to have a Rebbe/teacher

Lie detector, you don't honestly believe that people are going OTD because they were taught that the 1967 war was not nissim? As far as I can remember Prof. Yeshayahu Leibovitz proved the opposite: the eigel came because of the overwhelming experience of ma'amad har sinai and that is what will happen form the euphoria of the '67 war.
FWIW, I think both positions are equally foolish.

So you need a mesoirah to learn how to understand Teshuvos Rabbi Akiva Eiger and Chidushei HaRashba too?

you tell me

Yankel
"cover it up or stick to a program of ahavas Yisroel. "
a Mitzva that half torah relies on it, is a Program?
Askunas(even from the biggest gedolai yisroel) that was done when it was necessary, is raly a program, and should not be done in a belief system....

Yankel
"So you need a mesoirah to learn how to understand Teshuvos Rabbi Akiva Eiger and Chidushei HaRashba too?"
what is Shimush Talmidai chacomim ?
I think for Nigleh

So your position, oiros hakodesh, is that even when Judaism is being distorted, one should not call it out, because half the Torah is Ahavas Yisroel, right?
And if someone is doing something to endanger Jews or Judaism, one must stick to this principle and not take a strong stand?
Does that apply to the supreme Mitzva of Shleimus Ha'aretz too? Or is it somehow exempt?

Yankel
Its not my position, you are reading in to my words,
I only said,
Ahavas Yisroel is a derech lerabim, since it is one of the pillar of torah and chasidus.
Fighting Neologs and Fighting Zionists etc.. is not a mitzva, it has to be done, and over and done with.
Not keep it around, for the only reason of getting even with your enemies.
The Chasam sofer did not fight the Shabsoim, The Tzemach Tzedek did not fight Napoleon,the Reshab did not fight Doktor Lilenthatal,
Nobody in NY fights the Neologs etc....
All the above never got a life on its own forever and forever....
that is what I meant

Yankel
"Does that apply to the supreme Mitzva of Shleimus Ha'aretz too? Or is it somehow exempt?"
you are correct,
Shlemus Heoretz is no Mitzva, its only a term used in a debate, which can be debated for ever...

So the 'Malach', who claimed to have serious issues with the character of a certain Rebbe, decided to call him out on it, was not doing anything wrong or hateful. Ahavas Yisroel has nothing to do with it. If he was to fight Sabbateanism, he may be wrong or coming from an unfounded basis, but the issues of his day, as he saw it, were for him to fight. He could not claim Ahavas Yisroel to wiggle out of it.
The only issue is, was he right in his position? Not "How could he speak like that against someone"?

what need was there to call out a Rebbe living 6000 miles away to a group of young, impressionable kids who know nothing about him? Was it only to fight R Jacobson who was also preaching Chabad?

I have no idea, I was not there. Maybe there were people proselytizing for Chabad at the time and he had to teach them what he felt was the truth. Maybe he had Ruach HaKodesh and he knew that Chabad was coming to America. Maybe those boys had hinted to him that they wanted to go to Europe to learn in Otvotzk. The point is that he felt he had to do this. If you can prove that he was generally a spiteful person who did not care a whit about Judaism, then we would have to assume ulterior motives to his actions. But as it stands, his only misdeed was talking against someone else. That does not dismiss a person when it was under the rubric of teaching right from wrong.
BTW, fighting the 'Malach' is also irrelevant nowadays. He is long dead and his hashkafos are not gaining any adherents. I only belabor the point because it is relevant to many current events. We constantly hear the words Ahavas Yisroel used in terms of not calling out perceived distortions of Judaisms. This is not the derech of anyone who understands the imprtance and delicacy of the Torah.

Yankel
lets assume( personally I don't buy noting from the nesivos olem people) there was a story in a little town of Russia,of a chosid that felt something wrong is done in the Bais Horav, he spread rumors, till it arrived to the ears of the Rebbe who is considered universally a staunch ish emes Kodesh vetohar, even in the Satmar universe.The father verified after Derisha vechakira that it is based on lies. And instead trusted that son with his life. I believe that he should of realize that he was mistaken.
Plus, that son ended up as a fierce fighter against the communists, saying the deepest biurim in Chasidus, fighting Zionism, spreading the message of Moshiach in a very primitive way.Fighting Agudah, Sacrificing his whole life(with a body that was very sick) for kedusha vetahra.
Would a person like that pass as a Lite Maskil????
On the other hand I don't know how much of all the quotes they say in his name, are really his.
There are many contradictions, as the new letter in the back of Oitzer Igrois kodesh

Yankel
lets not forget, the Malach was against the Reshab too, but the Malochim ignore it, since in Willi its not popular.
The Satmar ruv needed a Russian rebbe on his side. So he is Kodesh Vetohar, the shinever ruv of russia....

Yankel
you are very wrong
nobody is fighting the Malach....
while Lemel does not touch a Kehot Tanya

Why are you fighting an ancient fight? It is irrelevant. Just like the fight against the Shabbateans. Now Ahavas Yisroel is completely relevant. Forgive and forget because there is no practical point to this hatred.
At the time the 'Malach' did what he felt was right. If he was wrong, והוא רחום יכפר עון.

Just to get it clear. This is not about the Malach. This is about people who cannot accept that some people take Yiddishkeit seriously enough to call out it's distortions. When people claim Ahavas Yisroel regarding distortions of Judaism, yet when someone attacks MY Rebbe he is fair game, it is pretty obvious that Judaism is less important to them than their own lifestyle. 'I chose this Rebbe, so anyone who talks against him is evil'. That same 'I' seemingly did not choose Judaism as much as he chose his Rebbe.
If a man who oyster cries,
Cries not when his father dies,
It is a sign that he would rather,
Have an oyster than a father.

Yankel
" 'I chose this Rebbe, so anyone who talks against him is evil'"
as a frum Jew, it goes that way, a talmid should defend his rebbe starting by chazal and ending by chasidim...
there is even in Choshen Mishpat a heter for a talmid to beat up a person that badmouths his Rebbe, personally (I am not that frum)I despise violence but the point is you see from Halocha how important halocha looks at defending a Rebbe
Not everything is cheap baby 48/45 politics
a Rebbe is Rebbe and a Talmid has to defend him...

Yankel
"Just to get it clear. This is not about the Malach. This is about people who cannot accept that some people take Yiddishkeit seriously enough to call out it's distortions."
I didnt get no clarity,you only fudged it up more,
you try to portray some Gedolie Yisroel, who were on the frontline of yiddishkeit for 100 years, as if nothing mattered to them.You try to label them hey never put up a fight for Koved shomaim, versus a Jew a local mashpia a chasidishe yid a oived hashem (Which I still saw with my own eyes, chasidishe yiden in the 770 halls who were not less then him with 1 iota)that had a fall out with a Godal, and could not get of that tree..
This is the fudge cake you try to cater to us, and I have to buy this as crystal clear.
You are constantly fudging around with ahavas Yisroel,Where does all this Ahavas Yisroel talk come in this discussion ?

Whom did I portray as not caring about Yiddishkeit? I took issue with those that will bring Ahavas Yisroel into the discussion. I do not have any dog in this race and I don't know who was right the 'Malach' or the Rayatz. Neither do I care. This is an old dead fight and there is no relevance today. Somehow there are people who would like to talk about Ahavas Yisroel and simultaneously keep old irrelevant fights burning.
Issues that are still burning today may be brought up and there is no contradiction to Ahavas Yisroel to strongly condemn any distortion of Judaism. If it is not a distortion, well that itself is a reason to disagree. Ahavas Yisroel is not an issue.

Yankel
"Somehow there are people who would like to talk about Ahavas Yisroel and simultaneously keep old irrelevant fights burning."
examples please???
maybe I can help you
the Chalban and the Rentegen?

What is chalban and rentegen? Some company in the Middle East selling alternative electricity? I have no idea what you are talking about and what it has with this discussion.

Its my gut feeling that all this Reb Chaim/Malach relationship is bogus.
He never discussed with him Moreh for hours.
Its all lies..
There is no proof or sign in all his letters etc..
The only proof they have is, that the brisker family does not deny it, since they have a common enemy.

Who is this common enemy Brisk has with the 'Malach'? Reb Shmuel Auerbach?

Yankel
Reb Shmuel Auerbach, Reb Shraga Fievel,Rav Shtienman,and who not...

What do brisk have with reb shraga feivel? What does the malach have with reb Shmuel Auerbach? Since when are brisk against rav shteinman? Reb Avrohom Yehoshua is pro, afaik and remember from my years there.
You are creating a politic to justify your hatred.

Where can one find a picture of the Malach?

הראח"ד לוין זצ"ל היה איש ציק ואיש אמת כמראה מאגרותיו,תלמידיו היקרים שאני זכיתי להכיר את האחרון שבהם הג"ר מאיר וועבערמאן היו צעירים מאוד בשעת התקרבותם אליו הגר"מ הנ"ל היה רק בן ט"ו שנם בשעה שנפטר המלאך. והרבה מן השמועות שנאמרו משמו הם כמובן בלתי מדוייקים ואין לסמוך עליהם. הגר"מ זצ"ל סיפר לי כמה וכמה פעמיםשבשעה שהיה הריי"ץ זצ"ל צריך רפואה ושמעו מזה באמריקה התבטא המלאך מתוך צער ודאגה אני מברך אותו ברפואה שלימהואני מתפלל בעדו לרפואה.
גם סיפר לי הגר"מ הנ"ל שהמלאך היה דוד של ר' בערל ליווי ועוד בחייו רצה שהנ"ל ילך ללמוד באוטואצקאצל הריי"ץ
כנראה שענין הטענות של המלאך היו לפי מהותו וחריפותו הנודעה. הוא שאל את הגר"מ על אחד מאדמור"י אמריקה אם הלה מניח עדיין תפילין....
ונוסף לכך יש לקחת בחשבון כי המלאך היה זקן מופלג באותן ימים וגם היה כבר חולה על המחלה נהוראה כמה זמן לפני פטירתו ולא היה נפגש עם תלןמידו רק לערך ג"פ לשבוע לזמן קצר ותוך זמן זה למד עמהם עניני עבודה ומאמרי חסידות ויתכן בהחלט לומר שהרבה מן המימרות לא אמרם ואפילו אמרם יש לדעת נסיבות אמירתם כי לא כל מה שנאצר לאדם אחד ניתן להבינו למי שלא נאמרו אליו.
וכן הדבר באגרותיו שנכתבו רק בפרטיות לאנשים אליהם הם ממוענים כגון בנו ור' א"ז מרגליות ולא היו נחלת הכלל רק היות שלא הניח אחריו בכתובים עשו מהם תורה שלימה.
אבל זאת ברור שהיה איש צדיק ותלמיד חכם גדול, והריי"ץ היה איש צדיק חסיד ופרוש ובעל מסירות נפש ופעל בכל גופו השבור והרצוץ ונשמתו הגדולה למען כבוד שמו ית' וגם הוא וגם המלאך החזיקו אז אמעריקא איז ניט אנדערש ובעולם העליון ודאי עבדו רבנן שלמא בהדייהו.
אגב התואר מלאך היה תואר רגיל בערי ליטא איש פרומער ולמדן גם רב ששונקין בזכרונותיו כותב אודות מלאך אחד...
דעת לנבון נקל כי המדבר אודות אנשי קודש אלו הן הריי"ץ והן המלאך אחר פטירתם לחיי עד ובמרחק של תשעים שנה אחר כך מתוך נוחיות של המגושדיקייט האמרקאית הנו נכשל בעון מספר אחר מיטתן והוא בכלל שוטה וגו'
ודי בהערה זו וישמע חכם ויוסיף לקח.